E013: Tyson Drake, former CMO at The Oodie, on Merchandising, Top of Funnel Tactics and More...

[00:00:00] Alright, welcome to Episode 13. We've got Tyson Drake here. One of my favorite people to follow on Twitter He drops a bunch of knowledge. We go deep on merchandising. We talk what top of funnel channels? We're measuring what are we testing? How are we approaching those and

[00:00:14] Tyson gives us a great analogy how he dislocated his shoulder at a metal concert So a lot to look forward to Thanks for tuning in and thank you to our sponsors motion Pression AI rich panel in house

[00:00:25] So all of us use motion every single day every single week and we love it and I would get a lot of questions about how we use it To help simplify our creative strategy

[00:00:43] Organize all the tests and learnings that we're doing and ultimately help us make better ads And so to actually want to share, I think this is perfect timing

[00:00:50] We just wrapped up a memorial day sale. So I actually want to share some of the reports that we're looking at to help you know Make better ads Understand our ads figure out what we can do to iterate on these winners and then actually prepare for block Friday

[00:01:02] So let's get into it. So there's a few different types of reports You can create one that I really love is called a comparative analysis feature You can essentially take any variables that you have if you have it in your name and conventions

[00:01:12] And you can break it down to see how things compare it And so the number one thing that we look at for any promo every week But also on a monthly period that I have sent to me is how do our videos versus statics performer?

[00:01:23] And so you can see here we spent a lot more in video We actually used to spend a lot more on statics during promos for whatever reason that that flip pretty similar ROS but obviously videos did a lot better

[00:01:32] So that's that's one that we're gonna look at just to get a quick pulse on how we're doing then We're gonna look at by concept. So we launch all of our test by concepts and so you know

[00:01:41] We may have a bunch of ads in each one, but the cool thing about this we may have this concept This PCC unboxing in eight different campaigns And it's very hard to go in face book and try to find all of them motion makes it super easy

[00:01:53] Aggrades everything right here and we can see that was our top-spend or one thing I love about it You can also ingest and bring in your North Beam attribution so you can see how much we spent on that concept

[00:02:01] What were the eight metrics what was the Facebook ROS and North Beam ROS for pretty much everything? And we can see which of our concepts got the most spend best ROS and see you know how we want to do

[00:02:11] And so that's comparative analysis the other thing will look at is just top ads And so again if you have one ad in multiple campaigns this will aggregate it all into one concept based on just Whatever ads have the same name and convention every week

[00:02:23] I get a report sent to make we do a comparative analysis that's saying hey of all the products here is how much you spent on each one of all the products We have in our ad account and what's our ROS and then secondly

[00:02:33] Here's our top seven ads and I just want to see did anything new make it into the mix is anything for digging So these are reports. We'll look at all the time for every green stuff But also for promo periods, so that's motion I absolutely love it

[00:02:44] And if you want to try that too like all of us here in the pod go to motionapp.com And if you tell them that you're coming from the marketing apparatus podcast, you'll get 50% off your first month All right here we are it's been a couple weeks since

[00:02:59] Conor and Cody and I've gotten together We got Tyson here today. How are you guys doing? Yeah, I'm great awesome thanks feeling good any big life updates from you guys What's going on? It's been it's been two full weeks since we've recorded a pot

[00:03:08] You know it feels like a while, right? Doesn't it feel like it's been for I feel a little off my game to the honest I'm like I got like nerves a little bit

[00:03:16] You know I know it's going to turn back on you Connor. I want to hear what why does it are you three weeks three weeks a married man now And if anything change any any different feelings, what's that? What's the married life like two and a half weeks

[00:03:28] I will say you know like it I forget sometimes that people listen to the podcast So I've been mentioning it now for like a month and it's been really sweet like a couple people

[00:03:38] I I am gonna connect with the guy from Martin Bo and he was like dude congrats on getting married It's like a so awesome to people kind of know about your life

[00:03:47] It's been really sweet people people saying that but we got married may 31 so it's been in 18 days It's been awesome Very much digging the married life I told you guys earlier. We did we didn't do like a proper honeymoon We were here in Salt Lake City Utah

[00:04:01] So we just did like a almost like the staycation version of a honeymoon up to Park City 30 minutes away hung out by the pool nice hotel order room service Fantastic, so that that's been my experience so far

[00:04:13] I'd give it a 10 out of 10 easy wow your your wife and listen. Is that why you're you're saying that And he's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Sean if you're listening to this I've got small hands

[00:04:32] And and Ridge we kind of we sell like really mask and bulky ranges. I don't think it's for me Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that this big update for me Connor your your next in line Pressure zone, but who pressure that I mean?

[00:04:49] I don't know how I can how I can follow the first the first 18 days of marriage. You know what I just got back from New York City I just got back from New York I was sure to get married next Cody's locked down. I'm like oh

[00:04:59] You're the best girl. You're the crew also how do you know you're off your own night both you guys want to New York and you can call me What the hell I know I know we had a we had a fairly full slate

[00:05:10] I should I needed I needed to fit you in. I will say the the New York City summer energy is just Something else like the the scale and the amount of people in the And the variability and them than the people

[00:05:25] It's so cool it was such a fun place to hang out I was like city biking around going over the things the Williamsburg bridge

[00:05:33] I saw an e-com home. We had never met in person and he was given me a little bit of a lay of the land and how to navigate the city And I had a lot of fun. I'm I'm out in Denver, so it's very different vibe

[00:05:43] But it was cool to be out there and explore the city a little bit and hang out Dude awesome all right, we're all we're all thriving Look, we can get into the episode we got Tyson Drake here. I will admit

[00:05:54] Tyson's one of my favorite Twitter followers. Oh, not followers follow follow wings I am a I'm a devote consumer of Tyson Drake tweets I was joking that he's been like shadow managing my team a little bit

[00:06:06] There's been more than a couple of threads we're all sent through and I'm like oh, this is what we should do guys Like he's got to figure that here dashboard to merchant lighting stuff. So we're gonna get in it get into it today

[00:06:14] I'm super stoked to have him but Tyson for those unfamiliar give us the rundown What makes you the marketing expert that you are? Yeah, I mean I've just messed up a lot of times probably No, I've been in the Econflict 15 years like self-taught

[00:06:31] Self-taught the gen affiliate market I started off doing click bank products back in the day when you could just Do a lot of arbitrage between Google ads so self-taught Google ads guy and SEO back in the day Like back in the day when you could

[00:06:45] Only like everyone could On the like Google ads search click you could direct people to the same landing page right after have any landing page variation And so yeah, some disemophilite de-gen moved on to like being the first higher of a fitness company

[00:07:01] And then grew that's largest online fitness retail in Australia at the time Went to spend some time in Europe. This is like 2014 now spend some time in Europe ends up like Networking my way to venture capital firm called project A ventures typical VC firms like four

[00:07:17] Managing directors they had like a 100-person operational teams everything from before its marketing business intelligence You know back in front of in dev Like HR recruitment full stack VC firm and sales pilot before its marketing team were

[00:07:31] We've gone to Apple following companies mostly direct to consumer marketplaces and like be Be there but either be there before its marketing team like do the work or maybe they're like a You know acquired by a P firm with their nine figure brand and we'd like help them

[00:07:46] Help the team like level up and like coach them and training for the next stage of growth And then yeah move back to Australia with my um fiance Who amir in Switzerland in Geneva and yes, and so I'll just been back in Australia expensive time in fashion

[00:08:00] Went from IPO with a insert sales provider and yeah, I was a seamo that would eat for about Almost two years and that was probably the most amazing experience so I had was Really probably

[00:08:13] Yeah, that and my time and Berlin and and then for the past like you know just over a year now I've been a fractional seamoy and I was first introduced to the concept of a interim seamoy when I was at the venture capital firm

[00:08:25] We had like um the the the the BSE mo and the the take a team into the different portfolio companies and we would Help them scale and grow and I thought the interim seamoy was like that is a cool this job in marketing where you can just

[00:08:37] Go into these like Companies and you can be responsible for the entire marketing function and really just like Help them with like implementing frameworks or hiring recruitment and you know business intelligence

[00:08:50] So or whatever whatever that may be and I think kind of like fade out if it's like project base So I've always kind of had that in the back of my mind and and now I'm like well, you know

[00:09:00] It's good as time is ever to try it in hindsight probably not because he comes is probably You know, you know, you know, probably peats when I when I left so um, you know

[00:09:08] I've been trying to chip away at what I'm attempting to do which is this fractional seamoy concept and yeah I really appreciate your shout out and and I appreciate you Like in a like in my threads as well sometimes some you know like employees reach out to me

[00:09:24] About what's this? How did you do this? How do you think about this? You're less of a shadow manager and more of a direct manager at that one. I'm like yeah, just go as Tyson Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, perfect. No awesome. I appreciate the run. I didn't know

[00:09:40] I'd seen the the degenerate filly background that's an interesting Entry point into digital marketing but I feel like 15 years ago I meet a lot of people who like kind of have a

[00:09:51] They like really grinded it out early drop shipping affiliate stuff like that good way to cut your teeth Yeah, yeah, it's um, yeah, I just downloaded ebooks just bought like how to do had to google ads and how to do SEO and and then

[00:10:06] Yeah, just I mean just isn't evolution right like you you start one channel. You start with google ads You go to another channel. You like just learn by doing right. I mean there's only so many You know 2009 2008 there's so many courses out there, right?

[00:10:20] And so you just have to like try some try some things and you know Okay, that doesn't work. Try some okay. This is working and then just like you just keep learning and you keep learning and and but I really cut my teeth when I was in Berlin

[00:10:31] Like they were like if it's familiar with the done in Kruger effect where like you think you know a lot early on and then like you And then you realize how much they're is to learn and then you kind of like

[00:10:43] Realize don't know very much that was kind of me when I went to this venture capital firm I was like yeah, you know We're largest on my retail for fitness and Australia at the time You know we're importing our equipment from China like direct to consumer in like

[00:10:56] 2019 we open showrooms and I was like yeah, you know, we know a lot of stuff and they get to Berlin I'm just like oh my god like I don't know anything about internationalization I don't know anything about like

[00:11:09] You know how what it like learning contribution margin in 2014 and I was like what is this like all these X You know X rock internet like people like who grew like billion dollar companies like the land And like hello fresh like

[00:11:22] Really cut their teeth and so I'm just like oh, I'm gonna be a sponge and just learn as much as I can and that that That probably develops a little of my foundation a lot knowledge during that period of time. Yeah awesome

[00:11:33] Well cool look we'll get right into it the first topic It we've got in the docate here is merchandising and marketing which I think we all kind of chime in around

[00:11:42] We're all going through quite different experiences when it comes to like category expansion or like general merchandising strategies These are some of the threads that I've appreciated the most just like content in general I was hoping Tyson you could just Quick definition of how you define merchandising

[00:11:59] We could go around the horn as well afterwards because I think many brands think about it different ways But when you think about it, how do you define it? Yeah, so I mean merchandising is like a really broad topic right. It's like what is marketing?

[00:12:11] And so I'll define it and then we can talk about the different Elements as well. So for me is the selection and presentation of products to meet custom and needs and maximize profit And so I'm happy to break that down a lot further because it's it's across functional

[00:12:28] competency right? It's it's across creative. It's across product. It's across marketing So yeah, I'll leave with that definition we can go from the Cool Connor or Cody like you guys are doing different things you guys have a Official merchandising rolls at either of your brands not official

[00:12:46] I mean it really falls under for us like I guess technically under Web in CRO like we've been talking a lot about merchandising recently Within the context of our of our website up and I'm I'm trying to like really push our team to

[00:13:01] Operate under the framework of hey if someone comes direct to our site lands on our home Pid homepage can they get to any product page that they want and is the path to that product page just super clear right now

[00:13:13] It's not I mean it's oh it's probably and in my I think it's you know I see it every day so I hate it at this point but we have some some designs out that were working on for an updated nav

[00:13:23] But like that's the context that we've been talking a lot about merchandising is like how how Available and accessible are these products on her site and in then manipulating that based on

[00:13:33] What we need to move more of like okay, we want to get aprons moving well how do we add a home page section and how do we move that up in the nav and how do we Do all these different things to get people on that page easier

[00:13:45] But yeah it definitely falls under CRO and then inputs from from our our product director who is you know doing all things the product development and go to market on new products Totally yeah, and that's how that's how I thought about it for long time

[00:13:58] People like like on site merchandising like Harry Lane at the product I used to work at Hollister and high school So we merchandise the product. We'd like folded the clothes and stack them up and like make it look good And I'm like oh yeah, that's what it is

[00:14:08] We are at a chief merchandising officer last year who was like it is at least the way he defined it Which is closer to Tyson's it's like way more like full stack you're doing all the way from selecting to

[00:14:19] Feedback on product development to bringing it to the marketing team and make sure and making sure ultimately gets presented So it's just like it's just like a super Harry germ. I think could you how do you guys think about it?

[00:14:29] Yeah, you don't see a lot of merchandising and beauty I think there's probably more like product marketing So the really going to people we have on the sea sweet are myself and our chief product and operations officer

[00:14:40] And so we kind of split it so like product developments her background so that they do all product development You know she has demand planning on her team. I you know

[00:14:48] Kind of cover it from like a revenue perspective and then you know my team kind of our brand marketing team does our Product marketing which is like our go to market here's how we're gonna position this here's how we're gonna how much we're gonna focus like what channels?

[00:15:00] We're gonna you know what levers we're gonna pull for a launch So those are kind of like the two so yeah, we we don't have You know a specific marketizing function, but it's kind of a collaboration You know between product and ops team and then marketing

[00:15:14] If that makes sense in terms of you know here's what we're gonna push here's what we're talking about here's our inventory Here's our our go to market strategy Here's our you know product development pipeline

[00:15:23] To and you know where that fits within our like revenue goals. Yeah, interesting that sounds that sounds a bit like how I Come to understand it over the last year So Tyson hearing our answers and you obviously talk to like

[00:15:37] Dozens of brands over the last 10 years or whatever about merchandising like do you often see people Miss understanding it or like do you think it's like well adopted in the communist tree? I'll give another anecdote when we hired our chief merchandising officer Sean or CEO was like yeah

[00:15:50] We've never done merchandising and it's like no you can't not do merchandising Yeah, it's just how like explicit do you want to do it and how formal of a process is it?

[00:15:58] So I feel like we were in a really like nascent stage when when this was only like 14 months ago And we really started taking a seriously How do you think like the overall D to see industries? Yeah, so for me

[00:16:12] It's really a cross functional competency, right and I think the best way to explain it is From the perspective of the four peas and marketing so product price place and promotion in your case kind of Yeah, but you have a chief merchandiser, right?

[00:16:28] And so they've come in and they'll be like no you do merchandising and it's because it's across category function And I'll break it down. So let's talk about product And so it's of course the starts with the product and

[00:16:39] With you know, like anything it's you know who has that customer and it starts with some research about How can we uniquely solve a problem for our customers and so it starts with the maybe they have a problem

[00:16:53] And we're in some unique position to be able to solve that problem and it goes like to design and they might do some design iterations on on that product You know go to some kind of product development life cycle we give access ensembles, et cetera

[00:17:04] But then the merchandiser or you know It might depend depending on Your old you know who's responsible but usually if you have a chief merchant does it that would be responsible like okay How what is the breadth of of our products that we're going to go through?

[00:17:19] You know you've really Connie mentioned Aperons you recently you recently in launch was like so that was a merchandising decision, right? So someone someone has decided we are gonna launch aprons and not only that

[00:17:30] We're gonna launch aprons in these colors and and that is that that is a merchandising decision, right? And so I think merchandising in product can get a bit mixed up, but that's like you know

[00:17:38] The you know the the first peeve of the four piece and and then have deepie by not no in terms of inventory Although that is a decision, right? More so like um, you know what what color ways

[00:17:49] What is what is like the sizes that we offer. So that's kind of like the depth part and then you have the next pee which is price, right? And your product has to I feel like a certain price point within the market and

[00:17:59] You know that mean by premium there might be a lower lower end and so you have my maybe compressed margins and that in that That um as a result of that that informs like what suppliers use and how you position your products within within the market

[00:18:12] So that's like the pricing point and it's of course well, what do we price? When do we discount what margin profile do you want to have this product and that's like the the the price part of merchandising

[00:18:22] And then we have place so place what I'm referring to is effectively distribution channels and so that is like your website That is Amazon there's retail wholesale and you can have different channels that will have different types of merchandising

[00:18:37] And so you know, maybe your pro your primary um direct consumer brand and in your website is a primary channel and so Maybe your secondary channel is Amazon and used to strategically with hold some inventory from Amazon some products from Amazon

[00:18:50] Because maybe when he uses as a clearance mechanism maybe you want to you know Have one or two best sellers on on Amazon, but you want to you know

[00:18:59] Final people to search your your website and then you can get that customer data when when they make a purchase And so that's a merchandise in decision right and what you have strategically in restore

[00:19:09] In your store so I quote you if you're launching a whole bunch of stores now maybe have all your products in there Maybe you don't I don't know but you don't have like this endless

[00:19:17] You know the luxury of like an endless category and scroll like you do in your website So maybe used strategically with hold some products for whatever reason or you just limited in space due to what at whatever like retail space

[00:19:29] You can you kind of quiet but it's not only channels right it's markets and so you know a good example is I don't you know Connie You know both corners right you don't have aprons in Australia and you don't have luggage in Australia

[00:19:41] Cody ownership to Australia and so that's that's the that's a merchandising decision right and so and sometimes That's like a like a conscious decision and other times that is a decision based upon Like what you're allowed to do

[00:19:56] So for other giving examples at the hoodie we had licensing partnerships with like Disney Marvel Warner Bros etc. Pokemon like world class brands right and Disney would not allow us to have the license for North America for the US and Canada

[00:20:13] We can get the license for that so we didn't have distribution rights for North America However we did had it for Australia New Zealand and the UK I think and so that that's like a forced merchandising decision right and so

[00:20:24] We have to think about what other you know while we're promoting these product mortges in like Southern Hem and then UK What are what are we doing Northern Hem during the period time so it's like the place part of

[00:20:35] And then the last P is our promotion and this is probably what what in ecolon man We're probably used most do which is like You know, what does that go to market strategy for new product launches or existing launches

[00:20:46] What is our marketing mix? What channels are we gonna like what channels are we gonna launch with these new product launches? What's our messaging positioning? What are we having in that creative you know is a single hero shot for this new launch or we're showing like variety

[00:20:58] We're showing product breadth for like the apron launch. How are you like visualizing day in the creative? You know, it's not just the crazy strategy just isn't about the hook It's about what products we're showing in the creative It's about the creative on your website so

[00:21:10] The product product images and like what what are the variants? You know, Connie you mentioned a few weeks ago that you just love video on your product images a hex club That's a merchandising decision

[00:21:21] There's a visual merchandising decision, right? And so and then you have like the typical Search merchandise so searches like what products we're displaying with selling searches How we matching synonyms or misspellings

[00:21:34] How we merchandising our collections is there like an algorithmic way to merchandise those collections or you like you got someone manually putting there We've got some rule-based collections Is the nav menu is a is a dessert or is it best sellers down?

[00:21:49] What what categories are we having and the collections and ether and then we have like CR wrote So CRO is visual merchandising, right? Now it's called CRO but it's really just visual merchandising when you think about it like a retail store perspective

[00:22:04] This is a visual merchandising, right? It's like reducing friction to purchase and making sure that the customer can Find what products they need and and you know search merchandise and personalization

[00:22:14] Kind of does that so that's the recommendation engine underneath as well, right? The similar products the cart recommendations Aftercel that's a merchandise in decision, right? You actively decided what products are going to be in that

[00:22:27] You know when someone is purchased is that are you clearing products or are you CRO selling products your email merchandise in decision why you have some categories in there some categories you don't

[00:22:37] So so that's like how I think about merchandising. It's it's full funnel usually a merchandise or the product team Responsible for that product And and place and then marketing as we think about it is a sort of the the promotion part

[00:22:51] Yeah, totally and that's what I ask it's almost sounds a good silly question right like how has the didsy industry adopted like the merchandising role And but there's something weird about it where like most of the things that you describe it's full stack

[00:23:03] I would most brands I talk to don't have a formal merchandising role so therefore that full stack and all those decisions are like Some weird amalgamation of different stakeholders

[00:23:12] We're like I'm choosing promotion and Sean's choosing category expansion in our design. Yeah, our product team is choosing price and it's like There are certain like times where like that all comes together and like a really coherent way and like we ultimately launch

[00:23:25] But like there's not there there hasn't historically been like a pure owner through like the whole funnel and that's what I think super interesting

[00:23:31] Then I'll talk to a parallel brands and I feel like this is probably where your depth of knowledge comes from where like they need it dial You need in line out of line plans you need categories. You need newness every year

[00:23:40] It's a very seasonal business so all the stuff gets dialed, but if you if you're selling black gun metal and carbon fiber wallets for 11 years Like we can we could get pretty far without it But as we've introduced newness it's been like a whole

[00:23:52] The big learning opportunity yeah, I mean some like you mentioned fashion the fashion industry is entirely You know run by merchandise is really like where you're inventory turnover

[00:24:04] You know you don't have core number one it is it is forced seasonality so you know the you know gets cold You wear one clothes you get hot. You wear you wear clothes that are you know shorter or whatever like you have this forced

[00:24:20] Unus right and so you're entirely relying upon the quality of you know how much bread than depth you have and Also the quality of your of your of your product team right how good are they at designing?

[00:24:31] It is it is just a completely different game rather than you know having a lot of predictability that comes with the benefits of a core range

[00:24:40] Which you just don't really have a little bit in fashion. So yeah, it's a different game, but I'll spend some time in both I definitely cut my come on teeth a lot better in in the fashion part

[00:24:50] But there's lots of learnings that you can bring to like you know Non fashion brands as well Yeah, cool. So I imagine a lot of people listening a running digital brands and I think a lot of us maybe at least Connor and I

[00:25:02] Really think about it from like a site merchandising and visualization standpoint And this just came up internally so I'm being very selfish asking but like Connor when you guys are figuring out how to structure the site

[00:25:14] What are you looking at and how are you making the decision and who are the stakeholders that are involved in that? So what are the most successful brands have been in common? They have great profit margins

[00:25:24] They're lean businesses are actually making money. This is something that he did the C Industry I didn't do for a really long time and number two they have a brand that consumers love now

[00:25:33] What if I told you that you could achieve both using AI the team at rich panel has developed an AI that can significantly Reduce your support staff will providing memorable customer service So you can reduce costs while ensuring that consumers continue to love your brand

[00:25:46] So here's how it works the AI imports data from your existing help desk and uses this information to train itself This entire process takes less than a day afterwards it begins to automate numerous tasks thereby reducing customer response times

[00:25:59] We just switched to rich panel at rich we had been on customer. I didn't feel we had a modern stack for our customer experience team But we're looking forward to doing is a number of things I just mentioned

[00:26:10] We're gonna reduce head count. We're gonna offer a better customer experience We're gonna make information more readily available to the consumers that are looking for it And we think rich panels are great tool to do that so the best aspect of the transition was its implicit

[00:26:21] We ready to go live in two weeks with no data loss our team of 30 agents were quickly onboarded and thanks to rich panels Tutorial videos and user friendly interface it was all very seamless if you're looking to leverage AI to save on support payroll and deliver a customer

[00:26:34] Service experience at your customers will truly appreciate check out rich panel.com and schedule a demo with their team Yeah, so we'll often do like we want to build a bunch of awareness right when we drop these products or offer Often doing like a complete

[00:26:50] Hero section home page takeover So in that process that's very heavily involved with our our head of content who will go and produce this like You know hero hyper real style of video that will you know take over the home page for call it like

[00:27:05] Two weeks and then the goal is that by the time the So that's gonna be there and support all of the the initial I campaign launches, right? Especially if this is like a retention driven product which all of our products were trying to sell

[00:27:18] Tories just in customer base and then some of them will also build acquisition funnels around But the goal is that by the time that this hero video comes down We basically have all of our life cycle marketing built out around that product

[00:27:29] So it's like all right we have this big campaign this big campaign blast strategy for you know three to four weeks And then we remove that hero video go back to evergreen, but at this point now

[00:27:39] We now like the big promotion that's gonna be happening is just in an ongoing evergreen way It's like all right. We launch aprons we have this aprons hero video. We do a bunch of campaigns Okay now three weeks later We go back to evergreen hero video and then

[00:27:53] People have the opportunity so now we at this point We've added aprons to our general cross-self flow Hopefully we have our products specific cross-self flow built out so as we continue to acquire people on our hero products

[00:28:03] That are not the aprons. They'll you know we'll get them not necessarily in market for aprons But we'll make them aware of aprons So when the iron market hopefully they're coming back to our product so that's the overall like

[00:28:14] Overall launch strategy and how we get into like a sustained strategy and then we go into Like where does this live in our navigation right? So is this a level one breadcrum is it a level two breadcrum and I say that in terms of like

[00:28:27] You know in an av level one the first thing you click on then you click on something and brings up that next category So like what are the decisions there like Tyson you talked about this in that level two breadcrum like how do we order that?

[00:28:38] Do we push them to sets first our individual product for a store Collection page or best settlers like thinking through where these new products fit within your overall Navigation and then we go into the actual like is this an acquisition product or not right?

[00:28:52] So now we're talking about all the things you talked about with like angles and Like product value prop focus versus bread focus. We've a little bit of both going on right now if you go look at our ad library

[00:29:02] What are the channels that were we're marketing on site the aprons for example was you know Arguably the biggest launch we've had so far from and overall Channel perspective right like we we developed

[00:29:15] Streaming TV creative YouTube TV creative paid social creative and all the retention tactics campaign launches Life-cycle marketing post purchase flows We're developing a landing page for it the aprons a totally different product category for us

[00:29:29] So it required a ton of different new elements like a new collection page design new product page design So that was very across functional. I mean that involved You know had a bad advertising director paid media creative You know head of website myself

[00:29:43] Director of retention obviously the product director who leads all things product dev and go to market like that was Arguably the most cross-functional new product development we've had to go after other products are

[00:29:55] A lot less like we just launched this bladder screen the only thing that we really did for this bladder screen was Built out three campaigns or two to three campaigns lot announcing it

[00:30:05] We built out a campaign block so it's not all about that but like every so often will input this like Hey new splatter screens product into a campaign. That's not about splatter screens and then the only thing

[00:30:16] We had to do on the upsell aside from burden the product page of course was added as an upsell on Or sorry on the website was added as an upsell on products that it made sense on so you know we kind of have this checklist

[00:30:27] That is like all-in-composing and then depending on the breath It's you know like the splatter screen 90% of that checklist was marked as not required in our project management board

[00:30:37] Whereas the aprons was you know the whole onslaught of all these channels and we basically have this kind of ongoing template That were always updating as we add a new tactics and that's like the thorough run through

[00:30:49] We do at least as it pertains to our go to market for all these products and it just a matter of You know what the breadth is of that of that product and how well it fits into

[00:30:59] Existing funnels or if you have to build out new funnels for it. Is that like part of a like a playbook So how I classify this is like a TIA ABC or 123 playbook or maybe TIA Playbook is like all right, it gets the full

[00:31:12] Sweat of everything. It's new funnels. It's like yes, you create is it's that and like maybe maybe a C is like all right It's upload is the website as like it's a new color gets uploaded. Maybe there's an email

[00:31:23] But like that's how we do that's kind of sure We like tear up a B and see completely have templates like that. Yeah, same here Yeah, like A plus would be acquisition retention full channel active like that's aprons

[00:31:34] You know, maybe like an A minus is acquisition and retention but only paid social activation on acquisition To your B would be retention only and then tier C would be Manly focused on retention but just upsell type product that fits into existing funnels. Yeah

[00:31:50] Who decides that is that is that based on product Is that like yeah? Who decides that right is that based on inventory depth so that's my question to Specifically run aprons. I'll I got my dad in apron and I got him a headlion ben and apron

[00:32:05] So I'm sorry about that. I You guys were making a push otherwise I'd be a devout hex cloud apron buyer I know do you know ridge ring no hex cloud apron? Jones road probably Yeah, no John throw that either

[00:32:19] But that's my question because aprons I could see it's like To your seat but put them up do it happens. You know what I mean, but like you guys very very much took a tier A approach and like what was it

[00:32:28] What was the decision making like behind that yeah, so we we have this overall initiative as a company to Really make a push towards becoming Not a pots and pans brand but a kitchenware brand and really we want to own the whole kitchen and

[00:32:43] In my opinion and in the opinion of a lot of people at hex cloud the only way will ever really do that is if we can bring people in

[00:32:49] Unknown cookware products like if if someone comes in and they buy this fall piece at or the six piece set or whatever They're probably always gonna sub consciously think of us as

[00:33:00] Whatever they first bought right like if you bought pots and pans then we're probably a pots and pans brand in your head If you bought the the pepper grinder or the apron on your first order

[00:33:08] Well now we're starting to direct to diversify into less of a pots and pans brand into into more of a true kitchenware brand Which is ultimately what we want and I really look at like the aprons for example

[00:33:19] I look at that the same way I look at like our rollout in the Asian markets We have absolutely zero awareness in like Japan in China in South Korea Yet we've still decided to like roll out in Japan That is a like

[00:33:35] 10 plus year investment in bet that we will catch catch steam and and build brand awareness and be way ahead of other brands In markets that have massive towns, but I'm we're not expecting that to be like major profit drivers for the next decade

[00:33:51] It's gonna take a lot of time aprons is similar right like we have no brand equity in apron We are everyone sees this as a pots and pans brand But we've made a really awesome apron. We're all super proud of the quality of the product and

[00:34:04] Again, we want to become a kitchenware brand not just a pots and pans brand so we've basically made the strategic decision to say hey

[00:34:11] We need to start investing in it. It's gonna be a slow burn. It's not gonna be as profitable as you know our 12 piece set funnels But that's okay, you know we we know that we need to invest here and it's gonna take time and we're comfortable with that

[00:34:22] So that's been like the overall thought process and and it does have the margin profile That we're all confident can you know become a successful acquisition product that

[00:34:33] At least to an extent is is driven by paid media at least from the jump totally. Yeah, I love it. I love Just like being a peril like as close as you're gonna get to a peril for a

[00:34:47] Kitchenware brand I think is really rad like just getting to show more people more life styles You all of a sudden have logos that are like forward facing which I think is cool Just from a brand and creative perspective

[00:34:57] It's exciting to start to build these like we're starting to like think about Analytics for all these different business units, right like traditionally we've been you know fully focused on cookware And like the 12 piece and six piece set for acquisition funnels and now we're starting to think through

[00:35:12] Okay, well now we need now that we're starting to acquire people on knives on aprons on hex mills on these different product categories like We need to build these dashboards to track performance over time So it's like overall blended business performance, but now

[00:35:24] Cookware as its own aprons as its own hex mills as its own and we're tracking those individual business units You know month over month over month as let's see all right. Well, where's cactrending? Where's our traffic trending? you know we're starting to

[00:35:37] Measure for our influence or team work. I'm giving them key results that are like impressions per person Product category so we can start to measure those over time and that's like what I'm really enjoying right now is thinking through like what's the analytics

[00:35:48] Stack to like understand how aprons is trending because like yes, I'm not expecting aprons to be profitable right away But we need to be obviously trending in the right direction really traffic needs be going up Cackenies be coming down over time you know in platform

[00:36:03] That's interesting to be improving. We need to be getting more impressions on on these products with influencers So that's been really fun recently is like to expand outside of Cookware and start to think through like

[00:36:13] What's the overall dashboards that we're setting up and what are the key results we're working towards to ensure that You know this big picture goal is is being trended towards because it's not just gonna happen

[00:36:23] Just from putting it on your site and having an easy to navigate to product page like that If you build it, they will come is certainly not the not applicable in e-commerce right like you got to be

[00:36:35] Doing marketing to build that product and to build performance around it so Been working on that with my team of law, it's been a lot of fun to like

[00:36:43] Kind of rethink starting from scratch again in these new product categories. Yeah, so I think that's a really cool one And I want to get it to Cody here talking about category expansion like something that came up in

[00:36:55] In a conversation I had recently was around like financial projections or just like yeah Financial projections revenue goals by category something a little bit more granular than like top line Cody, how are you guys thinking about that at Jones wrote do you have any sort of breakouts in

[00:37:11] Revenue between different product types now we we don't really like we we think about it We're definitely adding and launching you know new products a lot of them are we we measure it I don't think we have like very specific goals. We obviously have

[00:37:24] Forecast for them based on demand plan, but we don't totally You know break it out or like look at them as separate business units. I think there's there's pros and cons

[00:37:33] And I really like we should have all the honor from out and bow on because I know that you mentioned them earlier Like I know that they look at things as like separate business units

[00:37:41] So you have like different creative strategists on them which is which is really interesting Now we don't and I think there's pros and cons, but you know then when you start to do that and you've got like a head of skin care ahead of you know

[00:37:53] Cosmetics stuff like that then it's kind of like everyone's competing and fighting for resources And the way I've tried to set things up is like You know why I want the decision makers to care about the overall team rather than one category

[00:38:07] And I think you can kind of get you know you've got to make sure your culture is writing And you've got to write people so people don't just get incentivized by their one department and

[00:38:15] I think because you know our decision makers are are across multiple departments and overseeing everything You know we're able to just kind of focus on what we think is best for the overall business

[00:38:25] And so I think we have like a unique or extra-triature, but I think it works for us because We're really Trying to align the incentives together like just in general like to your earlier question about like who does merchandising

[00:38:36] Like I actually met with it because now like Nate Pullen like digitally native on Twitter when I wanted to let this Orcass thing he shared like how they did it up and no both and like I think some of these things that it's a great question

[00:38:45] Like who does this at your org and I think that the thing that stuck with me because they were like Apparently within like 2% of their forecast and it's like

[00:38:53] The the pinnacle. I know he's talked about like like the kind of gold standard of like these organizations is like Like the the fashion companies that have a catalog because that forces you to be so dialed in with your forecast and you're merchandising

[00:39:07] And and these long leads cycle, you know Marketing campaigns but just kind of just ducking because at that time I met with him like I was really struggling with like working with like

[00:39:16] Op some we had like a COO slash CFO and like it just the incentives weren't necessarily aligned with marketing and There were inventory issues and just different goals and it just really stuck with me how it's not just a question of

[00:39:28] This is who's in charge of it but more of like this is like a triangulation and just like The interplay between these departments between ops between finance between Whether it's you know marketing whether it's merchandising like whatever you call it at your org and so for us

[00:39:42] It's not one person, but it's it's myself and the chief product officer and you know we We work super close with you like for example, we just have to switch out some of our holiday offerings and so you know

[00:39:51] She knew what was available what we have stock up she knew what was created But she kind of came to me and we we decided on it together of what we had to switch out

[00:39:59] And I obviously am looking at it from a revenue and margin perspective and she's looking at from you know Product development and inventory perspective, but I just think getting that See sweet the leadership team to really work together and have like

[00:40:12] Shared incentives is like the most important thing in my opinion and I think that's where you can probably go wrong If you're trying to just have a decision maker who's like Finance wants this ops wants this marketing wants this and like having having those different ones

[00:40:25] So it's for us as a collaboration even coming down to like what up cells were putting on their sight Like I can't just go and like I own sight. I own you know visual merchandising of sight

[00:40:35] But I can't just go and switch it because it's kind of have input like what up cells were putting on our PDPs It's kind of have implications on

[00:40:41] Our inventory if we switch it like we've seen as we switch stuff out there like totally affecting so we we just have to work lock step and And work very collaboratively and I don't want to think of it as like it's my decision or it's hers

[00:40:53] It's like that's just the team working nature and the collaboration which I think is best for the overall business unit Yeah, and yeah, you know you spun on about the the forecast curdy because there are there's really three forecasts right

[00:41:06] There's like a merge forecast so ops forecast but let's call the merge forecast and every every Department has gaps in their own forecast right and so merge is gonna forecast in like excuse units

[00:41:17] Collections and categories, right and then you have like finance. I was also like gross margin And like when they might do mark downs, et cetera Finance are 13 week cash flow, right? So they're not looking at they're not looking at skews

[00:41:31] And and marketing is is cohorts right go arts channel investment and like contribution dollars and so every like every team should Do the exercise of forecasting for their own like respective department and and you know that is different for whatever reasons And everyone should come together like once

[00:41:51] You know for the final forecast. I want to month or whatever and then just like sense check it all all the time And so you just want to be like okay, so matches like okay, well we got these products coming in

[00:42:00] We've got this product line up coming in in like six months Marketing Are you aware that we're gonna make you know, but with bought deep into it's gonna be in your cut-a-gory

[00:42:09] And you hear a category bought deep into it. You so therefore you need to read just what you're doing six months from now And and you go okay, I want you to think about how you invest in these channels

[00:42:18] And I need to like think about how there's gonna impact you know customer acquisition efforts, et cetera And so and so everyone's kind of are forecast like feeds off each other and should you kind of align in in some way

[00:42:30] I just couldn't agree anymore and like you can just tell that you know what you're doing I've been around the block because it sounds so simple, but it's like it's such an important No, but it's such an important ingredient for running successful organization

[00:42:45] Especially probably it gets more important as you have more skews and things get more complex But it's yeah, it's everything in my opinion. So I'll talk about another conversation we've had internally around like when to buy deep on a new collection

[00:42:58] And I think you've talked about this a little bit Tyson so I'd love your take but there's obviously this balance of like if you have a winner If you have a design that you think is great like you want to buy deep into it

[00:43:06] So you can scale it, but you also you put yourself at risk that it's not the success success that you think it is And now you have a bunch of like low-cell through inventory that you've got to worry about for completely different reasons

[00:43:16] We've talked maybe about like continuing with kind of our rapid product in a rate iteration But buying lighter identifying winners and like relaunching or chasing inventory after we find it

[00:43:28] I'm curious if you have any like best practices or strategies that you've implemented at UD or maybe another example. Yeah, so in terms of You know in terms of Let's take let's go back to like when these decisions are made right so I imagine dies

[00:43:43] Or the product team, you know the work with CO and like aligned with marketing So starts with like an alignment as like we have bought into this product

[00:43:52] For some reason where that be that this is where the market is trending or this is like a new category that is obvious for us So we're gonna expand it and we're gonna buy we're gonna buy deep, but what does deep mean really now?

[00:44:02] I'm not like I'm not a merchandise. I'm not the inventory plan so just want to throw that out there I'm just a market and What it what it means is that there is an expectation set that

[00:44:14] We are gonna make a significant investment and and the like the Holy Grail is like this just in time in the story concept right So you have like just enough inventory for like lead time and production. So for example, it's say you got Thousand units

[00:44:27] of inventory yeah, your cell through is like you know 20 20 minutes a week so you go like five five weeks So 100 units 20 it's a week you got five weeks healthier yet and production lead times like five weeks So the challenge with that is like well

[00:44:43] You know nothing better happen when you order that and everything better go right But that's like like inventory efficiency and of course we know things can go wrong right Leetimes you know etc factories you know timelines change On water times change

[00:44:59] You know whatever that reason might be and so they're tradeoffs right But in terms of how you Think about like inventory it's a merchandise in the season right so

[00:45:10] How I would think about is how how could always think about risk what and so it's like how can we do risk the the inventory position whereby you have

[00:45:19] Low inventory in categories that you that you want to test and maybe maybe it takes off right and then you go Okay, it's taken off a bit then we go into the big by and then like we kind of have a bit more to push it harder

[00:45:31] Rather than just like doing this massive bite of start with me like all right You know we don't know how much we're gonna sell because we haven't launched yet

[00:45:40] And you know and now we know we're not selling much and it would go like you know a years where the inventory And so it's always like how can we do risk how can we do risk the buy and then?

[00:45:51] You know but it should be expectations set from the beginning right like this is this is a a T1 launch right We have a T1 launch when we know we're gonna these are these marketing activities are associated with this T1 launch

[00:46:03] We're gonna see how it goes and maybe it sells out right and then selling out is good because there you go Oh, so we've had so much demand We sold out but really all that mentors. We just didn't do a massive massive bifurot

[00:46:15] But we got enough to gauge and and I don't think I think if you do launch I don't think you're existing customer list is a good way to gauge How well the product is gonna do right because you can you can say like you have like

[00:46:29] a few hundred you know new watts right and Maybe maybe you do an email and you just sell out And you're like okay, well, that's an awesome product but really

[00:46:38] Can you acquire customers with that product that is a real question? Can you acquire new customers with that and doing just the email is kind of A false gauge on that because you got a bunch of little customers who're gonna buy like whatever

[00:46:49] We let this is the early wrap, so we learn whatever whatever pattern that we put on an order We can sell right but that doesn't to email this. This doesn't matter and because we operate with such a long-tile

[00:47:00] You know that would he has such a long tail of Designs right so you have like joke you know people like dogs. We like cats people like Disney people who like

[00:47:09] You know just just something that relates to them that it's kind of like then we're then buying a path in that relates To to their interest or who they feel they are like as a person and so such a long tail and so you know

[00:47:24] You can fall into that trap as well and and fashion has this problem right so fashion has this problem where you know

[00:47:31] They they have a like a depth this breath problem where there it's like how how deep do we buy and like how how why do we go and I think sheen has really Like taking this approach to it's like

[00:47:44] Maximum whereby you know that for the way understand like how sheen operates is to have a few you know all this applies either by one 200

[00:47:52] Scuse or whatever and they just see what pops and then whatever pops they like they then they like start to produce more of that And it's like kind of like this, you know blacks want approach to like mention die thing

[00:48:03] Right? You just like oh, you know that is like the power law goes over to this product We're just gonna like you know massively produce that but um

[00:48:10] But but yes, so there's a lot of problems in this approach and and it's also goes upon like how do you think about structuring your your Add accounts for example and like do you do you structure it for Like at the category level and

[00:48:26] Because you need the you need the ability to kind of flex up and down you need the ability to have control over where your dollars are spent not just at the channel level Right, no listen marketing channel level

[00:48:35] But at the at the category level for whatever it is you're selling so all the sudden like you know You might have a hundred products in this collection and you know Maybe shoes go out of stock or not even shoes go out of stock, right?

[00:48:48] Maybe you know you have like a bell curve of different sizes of shoes right and so you've got like the low size of shoes And like the the the the larger The larger shoe sizes and all the middle go out of stock, right but shoes Um

[00:49:02] That shoes like still the best selling shoe is the best sellers, but because of the size Change in what is available it is now not the best selling shoe, but still merchandise at the top of your collection

[00:49:12] Right and so now you have this problem where the conversion rate in your entire category is gonna tank Because the The the the only the small and large sizes the non desirable sizes are available and so that affects like your targets

[00:49:28] Like in platform targets and so you're like so you have to have the ability to kind of dial up and dial down Where that's from marketing spend perspective or whether that's for like changing cost copy a big cap

[00:49:38] You just have to have the ability to like how are we doing? Okay, conversion rates tank for us talk of these products. Let's like crank crank up the the cost cap or crank you know crank down the spend

[00:49:47] And then and structuring for control right and then having the data visualization in place So you can see you can see that in like real time whether it's like dial the or weekly

[00:49:57] You can see the changes in behavior of your categories of your category revenue or what units are moving So so then you need to like flex up and down Like the system it's like a it's like a living breathing system right and you can't consistently have like

[00:50:11] maintain it through various Yeah, yeah, yeah, and for those Curious the data visualization piece and the product type naming word two threads that we stole from Tyson internally Because the key to a good product type code. He'll be happy to know his a naming convention

[00:50:27] Let's go the heart and solve it to see for So one of buzzwords this year is income mentality last year is all that attributions years all that income Tality and I think that's a great thing because we are all trying to grow our businesses

[00:50:42] Profibly and we want to make sure that the spend that we are putting out into market is actually Is working for us so I know that we are all House customers and you guys have sought out houses here what what led you guys to

[00:50:54] To do that let's start with rich for us. It's all about new channels We're we're in the business of reaching net new mail audiences So when we're launching across Pinterest Twitter Snapchat live intent, etc We use house to measure the total impact of those new

[00:51:08] Channel experiments. That's awesome how about hex client? What are you guys looking at? Definitely the new channels as we roll those out but because we already had such a diverseified marketing mix In terms of channels and we're already spending a pretty high levels

[00:51:21] Prior to onboarding house the first batch of testing is just for us to find Those optimal spend levels with our existing marketing stack and then comparing those to one another to kind of see Within our existing marketing stack where should we bring spend down where should we bring

[00:51:35] Spend up in really using that incremental row as that incremental Cack number to inform how we move those budgets up and down. I love that yeah, and for us the same We've definitely tested new channels but we've also calibrated spend on an existing channels

[00:51:50] We've we've saved six figures a month just by not running brand search because we ran multiple tests and it's not incremental So I know for all of us has had a huge impact and we love it and we couldn't live with that at this point

[00:52:01] And so if you want to be like us and want to add scientific rigor to your marketing stack I recommend you go to house.io slash operators that's each a u s dot i o slash operators to get it demo today

[00:52:16] We're gonna pivot. I'm gonna take us to top of funnel channels How do you want to measure awareness how we want to measure efficacy there? So there's all about merchandising honestly Incredibly deep topic we're talking about like decisions across the entire organization of a D to see brands

[00:52:28] So we go on and on there but we'll keep moving go do you want to pass it to you again Well, I know both of you guys have been doing some out of home testing

[00:52:36] So I have the question of like what types of top of funnel advertising are we testing you guys are up to a bunch of cool stuff We just got back on linear a couple weeks ago, but other than that nothing too exciting could he use you to entrucks?

[00:52:47] Connor heard about an out of home plans go to one of you take yourself like what you guys are even thinking about from Out of home or just general top of home

[00:52:53] Yeah, I'm happy to share about I'm happy to get some feedback and Tyson and Tyson my bag because you didn't mean I did not reply to you so I apologize about that

[00:53:00] But I'm excited to you get some novel in in my defense you give me a novel about that That's why we're having you on very excited to hear how how how you think we should think about this Yeah, I've had enough reading time. So I just like that

[00:53:15] Yeah, so so a few different ways I think I was even thinking about this morning like We are personally we're we're big enough where we definitely need top of funnel spend It's definitely valuable we can't just go conversion out conversion out to myself

[00:53:27] And everything I don't think we're big enough where we can have reach and you know CPMs be the metric of success for us You know, and so I think the challenge just becomes you know how do we make sure that we're able to

[00:53:42] Reach new people cost effectively which is probably top of funnel spend But how do we measure what we care about and I think all tool may comes down to But as we're to the year incrementality just over a longer time frame

[00:53:54] So like our first top of funnel investment ever was meta reach campaigns and so we we launched that with house with the geotest And first we did a two week test that was decently six week test. I did well

[00:54:04] Then at 12 week test, you know we actually just got Some results back of a of another reach chest that we did for more of a weekend

[00:54:11] But we're obviously looking at yeah, is it helping us reach new people but more importantly is it helping us actually get more orders? And I think you know in terms of

[00:54:21] There are some cool ways to measure you know, so we did trucks with agile but just even traditional add-home like we're opening new stores So we're gonna do a lot more add-home You know there are these like quasi holdout experiments that you can do they'll essentially take some

[00:54:33] You know mobile device IDs and they'll create like a control versus a you know all hold our treatment group Which is those essentially say hey here's all of the the device IDs that were exposed to your

[00:54:46] Your add your your truck your billboard and here is what we believe is a segment of people that were not exposed to it I don't remember exactly how they do that and then you can look and see you can put a pixel on your site

[00:54:58] You could look at store traffic and you can kind of do this like quasi incremental You know test I'm very skeptical of it what we plan to do with with

[00:55:06] House is also just doing it geo base so we're gonna pick a city and we're just kind of bomb it with some add-a-home And we're just kind of run four or six weeks Hook it up toward data warehouse with house and we're gonna see

[00:55:17] More importantly sessions, you know organic search Brand search traffic things like that are they elevated Where you're running at home compared to all the regions you're not so that that's how we're currently gonna think about it

[00:55:30] But definitely open to here and what what you guys are thinking and are you guys? You're really hoping to measure like an incremental and profitable impact. There's no like we just want to

[00:55:43] Make like a cool impression I want to try I mean I want to see if there's a way and I mean I don't think it's it I think it depends if it's like a digital media kind of top of funnel, you know media

[00:55:54] Whether TV or something like that You know, it's still it's kind of in that in between of performance and and brand spend Right and so I do want to see that actually improve acquisition just over time if it's something like out of home

[00:56:06] I want to know it does something it doesn't necessarily have to to give me a certain cap You don't not kind of hold it accountable to that But I want to know to something so for me that middle ground is site traffic

[00:56:15] I'm not necessarily as concerned about you know brand awareness lift At least where we are currently at maybe with hex club but I'd love to see how you are more people

[00:56:25] Finding out about us and then searching for us based on us totally a couple things I come into mind because I because I I'm in Then sorry, okay, it's you Connor because I know you guys are doing a bunch of cool stuff

[00:56:33] I listen to a podcast with I forget her name Tyler maybe the the founder of outdoor voices and she was talking about for there like big Marketing moments

[00:56:40] They would pair on something that they thought was just like novel. There's no way they were getting like a profitable incremental return at the time They they I remember them doing um they worked with little Michaela the loo Michaela the digital influencer was like their big things

[00:56:53] So you had this like avatar like displaying the new like Jockey pants or whatever outdoor voices really coming out with and I was like that's cool

[00:57:01] And what made me think of it recently was your guys' agile trucks with the launch of that new kit that you talked about a couple episodes ago We're like I didn't see a truck. I just like you tweet about it

[00:57:10] But I was like oh, that's cool like it's way more memorable than you could tweet in a photo of like your guys is PDP or something So I could also totally understand like the top of funnel measurement of like

[00:57:19] Let's just be a little bit more memorable to some amount of people. I'm not gonna be a profitable Cachness assarily, but There's some some balance there to strike for sure definitely agree with that it's it's very hard to measure I think there are ways

[00:57:31] But it's definitely much harder like you said Yeah, and then Connor what are you guys? What are you guys testing right now yet? So that's on that no Connor that is very much our approach at least

[00:57:43] Someone like we will roll a lot of things out in paid so show it that that often I'll see the acid Like yeah, like I don't love it, but fine. Like let's test it why not whereas We're much more picky with our upper funnel channels so like

[00:57:59] Linear TV streaming TV We haven't launched out of home yet, but we're about to we are a lot more picky and choosey and With those concepts and the creators that are rolling out there so like we have some really what we're gonna start with is

[00:58:14] We're gonna start with some trucks and we have some really awesome creative getting developed We're we're gonna roll it out in New York and we have we have a partnership with the New York Yankees

[00:58:22] So one of the creatives is gonna be like Hax-Clax times in New York Yankees, which will be really cool, but Those have gone through a lot more You know a lot more careful eyes and same with our new streaming TV concepts

[00:58:33] We're coming up with we're working with a creative agency to develop some some billboard creative and some new TVCs like Those all Have to be really spot on great brand impressions so we will absolutely be thinking about You know impressions and CPMs with those. I was really

[00:58:49] Self-Asheo's like really curious to hear what Cody had to say about measuring out of home because Worked that like I said we're about to launch trucks in New York City and I figured it was some sort of like

[00:58:59] We need to measure like a period over period lift in that market probably So I'm definitely gonna reach out to you to take it some insight into how you're sending them to share

[00:59:08] I'm very skeptical of it, but I will say like I didn't hold it to the same rigor because Technically we got an incremental cack and criminal cost per site visitor

[00:59:18] I didn't hold it to the same you know rigor because it's not that much spent if you think about like I think we spent like 10k Right, yeah, I'm here trucks oppression shouldn't say it

[00:59:26] But but like I don't have to hold that to the same accountability of like our meta-spendor or TV spend that like You know we're spending that in a few hours so like as long as I know it did something

[00:59:37] I'm still skeptical of the amount of it, but yeah happy to happen Yeah, but what we said and I told you is memorable to me. I was like that's pretty sick

[00:59:44] Well, we also did this event so I don't know if you saw that on Twitter, but one of the days We had the time to hold it. We had a line of about 800 people around the corner and like that helps me justify it

[00:59:53] No like hey like at least it helped us do something that is memorable and and you know people are lighting up for yeah one thing we're also doing with our with our trucks and this is not gonna be

[01:00:05] Indicative like the the net channel performance, but we're basically rolling out three different creatives On across five trucks to start with and we're giving them different QR codes with different UTM blank So at least directionally I'll get some insight into which

[01:00:20] Creative is prompting people to like take that that CTA and go to the site Which will be interesting and maybe there'll be such probably some like Optimizations in like a better launching off point for our billboard strategy and when we release scaled

[01:00:32] We're like oh well, you know this New York Yankees creative didn't do as well as like the Gordon Ramsay But that didn't do as well as like the straight up product oriented creative so that would be really interesting to see that

[01:00:44] Other top of funnel channels. We don't do any non conversion based Like meta or TikTok campaign is all conversion based. We are gonna have you tested Not not in a like a held out way with how it's we are planning to but it's it's

[01:00:59] We're kind of saving that for once we get through all these budget tests To just measure the overall incrementality of like Facebook versus streaming our Facebook versus YouTube and basically because Like these these Iroasas can change so much based on the time of the year

[01:01:17] We've basically adopted this strategy where every like channel that we're gonna test We're we're gonna do a two-cell alongside Facebook so we're basically getting we're controlling for that time Because I just don't trust the data if I'm doing like a

[01:01:30] Facebook and mentality test you know over the next month and then the month after that I test streaming Well, those are totally two different time periods like just because the Iroas is better in

[01:01:39] Streaming the month after doesn't mean it's actually incrementally better during that same time period so That's how we're approaching a lot of these incrementality tests and That's what we're gonna do with our with our streaming TV channel so like in terms of measuring TV and streaming TV

[01:01:55] It's post-purchase surveys. It's media mixed modeling tools For linear TV will also measure like period over period lifts from baseline and like these strategic buys like hey You know MLB playoffs bottom NBA spot

[01:02:09] And then was streaming more recently. We're about to get this holdout test off the ground which like I'm so pumped for that Because our post-purchase survey data looks great on on streaming our MMM love streaming it's like we've continued to spend more and more in it per MMM

[01:02:25] But I just so excited to get my hands on this holdout test data and really see if that's also in line with what the MMM is telling us I want the post-purchase surveys telling us so that's the current stack Which is all very very performance based

[01:02:39] The one I'm just like still trying to wrap my head around it. I'm sure I will once we once we get it out there and start getting data is the is like the billboard and like the The true out of home stuff that's just

[01:02:49] probably gonna be a lot harder to You know connect to a to a Performer or to a purchase and two revenue

[01:02:56] Do you should ask how so we can connect offline but there there is a way depending on what your add-home buys kind of look like to to make for that and kind of do a geo They call it quasi experiment, but

[01:03:06] Yeah, also with the reach stuff like let me know when you're gonna test that because I we've got some battle scars We we launched it three times because we weren't doing it properly at all so I learned just by failure

[01:03:16] So let me help but let's turn over Tyson. I want to hear Tyson now that we kind of babbled about how we're looking at it Please tell us how wrong we are how how do you think we should be thinking about it

[01:03:26] You know measure in this kind of upper funnel stuff also if there's any differences per channel right like billboard versus linear TV versus streaming TV versus Facebook reach campaigns like there's I'm sure there's different methodologies that are you know more

[01:03:40] optimal on a per channel slash like campaign objective basis yeah absolutely The the challenging thing about measurement right is Every every way to measure has its own limitations, right and so kind of know you like analogy So I'll give one for you. So I recently

[01:04:00] Three months ago I dislocated my shoulder right was I just kid my left shoulder. I was at a heavy metal concert front row and

[01:04:06] Crowds her for film top for me and I tried to hold him up and everyone else around me kind of didn't and I just kind of brought the way to film fully Got one thing out with Tyson

[01:04:17] I had a big anecdote. Yes, yeah, all right loving the analogy And yeah, so um and I just kind of took in and out very quickly and I was like oh that's a bit unusual That's how I'm before but so you know I get fly back to Adelaide

[01:04:32] Go to doctor and then like okay, so first thing we need to do is an x-ray and of course, you know You start with an x-ray because you want to look at this broken bones You want to look at the shoulders back in place

[01:04:43] But the thing about an x-ray is it won't tell you there's any Legum at damage or 10 in damage okay, so that's like the You know that's that's a bit like the measure of problem right is every single tool has its own way to

[01:04:54] To visualize you know if you're doing a MRI if you've gone out like um, you know 12 12 We check up for your baby Don't get an x-ray right you get you get like you know that you know

[01:05:07] There's no skin for that right I've get the name of a bomb You know ultrasound that's the one you get an ultrasound right so so there are different types of tools

[01:05:15] Depending upon you know how to look at the body differently and it's just like in marketing right so There's a bunch of tools we can we can you know click base attribution modeling isn't good for you know TV already

[01:05:29] It's gonna show like the lower of ladies gonna show Low-final like demand capture activities if there is like you know direct traffic mining crease or like maybe Remarketing no mine increase or paid paid search campaigns

[01:05:43] Spend mining crease but and so I say marketing expolling yet it's like it's correlation It's not causation so you have this gap you have the it's like part of historic data and maybe that model might be wrong

[01:05:54] But with house it's it's like correlation right it's it's it's you know I guess the truth yeah, it's I guess the main source of truth but and and it's the same with like TV right so let's talk about I guess there's this measurement

[01:06:09] The just like thread that I wrote about how to how to think about measuring so the question was code Can you mention like how do we quantify in market demand

[01:06:19] From top of fun when a sacrifice right and so so straight away these are people that haven't purchased yet, right There's the people that are maybe in market and they have not yet taken an action to purchase So so straight away you basically have every you know

[01:06:35] Can use click base data because not normal amount of company website you can't use me marketing expolling because You know that maybe you put spending there, but you can't you can't fully see it and yeah, you can do a holdout test, but

[01:06:47] You know, maybe those are like the majority of people haven't converted yet So it's a how long to do the holdout test for right and so this like this is an afraid with that I came up with it's something that I know Lots people in Australia are using

[01:07:00] It's a museum until Could track suit and I'm not I'm not like a Payed or whatever to do this, but it's I just like the tall things about you. We gotta get you paid though I'll get you paid Yeah, we'll see but um

[01:07:14] So so the concept the framework is like you have but you have like your your tan you tell address will market right and within your tan There are

[01:07:23] Two distinct segments you can call it one is like in market demand and in market demand is like it's changing over time It's variable it depends upon seasonality it depends you know maybe have more in market demand and Q4 than you do in Q3

[01:07:37] And so it's variable and there's competitors kind of fighting for Like like the conversion right and so we know like you know all the best channels to scale with that It's like demand capture channels like you know Google search. It's like Facebook You know many conversion

[01:07:52] Except like all the performance marketing channels, right? I best like trying to Acquire in market demand and and you can call that like the behavioral targeting channels and then you have the other part of like the

[01:08:03] Tam which I'd call like the potential category buyers and this is everyone who is in your category So Cody that is like you know Or women or maybe you can narrow that down to like everyone who is like Like your type of

[01:08:17] You know like like you know that's a specific subcategory that the Jones already Well, I kind of both college you know it's like people who like everyday carry and and luggage You know cookware people so so like that is like your total Adjustment market

[01:08:32] The makeup of in market demand and potential category buyers and then it becomes okay. So if we advertise via TV how do we how do we then quantify who is like?

[01:08:46] Who is likely to be in market and what what leading indicators could we could reuse and so there's this concept of a prompt of brand survey by this Talk or track suit they are a

[01:08:58] They use like survey from a company called dinata which is like an always on brand survey So I probably brand surveys, you know you get email you signed up for and you've registered interest in like the specific category

[01:09:09] And they go okay, are you where are these five brands? 1 2 3 5 and you click yes, you know, yes I'm aware of hexclad And then the next question would be

[01:09:18] All these five brands which one would you consider buying from right and you know, I call you I'd consider buying from hexclad And so so what it does is it tracks in real time like as you survey start to come in and like the first

[01:09:30] One to do like a thousand surveys so it starts coming and update okay, so maybe have a you know 10% of people in the US a world of your brand and

[01:09:41] Within the category are where every brand and the out of that may be like five to six percent people Like five percent we'd consider buying from me and so from there, you know, you see how like a baseline right?

[01:09:51] You have like a benchmark and from there like every month. They do a prompted brand survey And as the survey results start to come in you kind of see the changes in awareness in the situation that they have

[01:10:01] Some other ones as well purchase and then usage and then you can't say okay, so if we do these marketing activities Where does that how does that change our awareness and how does that change our consideration

[01:10:12] So let's say we we best like a hundred thousand in a TV campaign and maybe we isolate it to one like one region And then after TV campaign we see awareness go up from my 10% 11 cents so we see like a 10% awareness bump

[01:10:25] But more importantly if we use consideration as a proxy metric for like Indemand or in in market We can say okay, well, your consideration raised from five percent six minutes. So I had 20% the lifting increasing consideration now while it doesn't mean that

[01:10:43] Those people may buy is in like the the the important sort of top of our interactivity should be What's called? Creating mental availability as just a fancy turn for saying when someone is in market to buy we want to be part of their consideration

[01:10:59] Said okay, so maybe they're not in market for like one to three months and that might be a typical Time to like first purchase When they become in market we want to be one of a very small few brands that they have as

[01:11:12] pilot their consideration set and every category is different so On average anyone when when they are ready to buy they have on average maybe three different brands that they would consider buying from and so It's just a matter of getting ahead and and making a like a

[01:11:29] An emotional connection with a potential future customers so when they are in the market to buy we are pilot their consideration set And then tracksuit just provides a way to quantify

[01:11:40] Like how we going in awareness and consideration and then like you said you look at post purchase data You go okay, well we do this advertising campaign maybe three months ago

[01:11:48] And then like we're now we're starting to see a bump in like one to three months and so with their women We can like tie that back to like okay. We just be advertising campaign and most people are self reporting TV

[01:11:59] That probably had an effect and and so like like in market mix modeling there's a concept of ad stock where it's like the the decrease is look kind of like a attention curve Right it's like the decrease of Like when

[01:12:12] The effectiveness of the ad and so TV has like the longest like Ad stock effect and like paid search is like straight away like as a fake straightaway because you Because you are searching for it. And so for me it just provides You know another way to understand

[01:12:29] The market activity which is in this case how we quantifying Um Top of funnel demand how how are we like Quantifying in market demand from top find activities and it's just another way Just like share of search will share of search is another example. It's like

[01:12:46] The total searches for our brand divided by total searches for the category and you know Maybe your your share of search is Increasing in your category and you can pet a share of search is decreasing as a percentage and so therefore you can go okay Our our

[01:13:02] In market demand is increasing due to our market activities and also Our market shares increasing as well and so share of search is like a proxy metric for market sharing Increase service search you increase

[01:13:14] Your market shares well. So there's just some other areas that I think through when trying to quantify these Hydroduc quantify channels Like people who haven't purchased it how do you quantify people having purchased it right? Let list growth might be one thing, but um

[01:13:27] Yeah, so that's just another tool in the box to kind of think about that So if you're a a CMO a had a growth a paid media lead in today's ecommerce ecosystem You know how hard Media mix can be you know how hard it can be to

[01:13:44] sift through all the data and make the decision of of what percentage of spend you want to put into each channel so You know last click based based attributions great, but they often They've often undervalued view channels and criminality hold out testing is great

[01:13:59] But that often takes you know weeks and months to get that data back and and you know you might take four or five six months to have Comparable data across our all your channels enter pressure AI pressure AI is AI powered marketing mix models

[01:14:15] So basically what pressure does it measures in forecasts the true daily value of your paid media campaigns with incredible accuracy And it really gives you the confidence to to scale and put your budget where you think it's best put And was optimizing that add spent so

[01:14:31] Basically with pressure and you're gaining AI powered inside into the impact of your paid media Including hard to measure campaigns on TikTok YouTube influencer and connected TV campaigns on your ecommerce revenue

[01:14:44] Including Amazon. I cannot emphasize how important this is it's one of my favorite parts of the tool Pression super easy to install there are no pixels You have just super quick access to past pressure present in future data in hours not weeks

[01:14:57] Months and hours you start getting models how put it and these are all unique to your brand They're trained and they're back tested on your data and what pressure does that I have not seen other MMM tools do

[01:15:07] Is that they actually give you optimizations down to the campaign? It's not just how much you should put in Facebook tick-talk YouTube But they're actually giving you Saying hey this campaign in Facebook is better than this one you should put more budget here

[01:15:20] Which is really cool we use it at a hex cloud. It's used by other top brands like good American cozier Tim buck two nude and dozens more. It's one of the fastest growing You know e-com tech MMM tools in the game right now

[01:15:33] So if you want to check them out book a demo today at pressure dash AI dot Io forward slash operators that is PR CI ENT N- AI dot Io Forward slash operators pressure an AI helping brand scale spend confidently with AI powered marketing mix models

[01:15:56] I'm super interested because we haven't done any any surveys like that some super Interested question view. Is there anything causal like for example you know it would be great to say hey it went up this this quarter You went from two to four percent awareness, but you know

[01:16:11] Obviously there are so many potential factors that could you know go into that rather than like isolating a You know a geol of training like that so is there anything kind of causal that would help you tie it back to

[01:16:22] a specific channel or a specific program or or kind of just more more correlational Yeah, it's more correlational to be honest and and the the prompt of brand survey tracks every month and it's updated real time as people fill in this survey data and so

[01:16:37] I mean the big is just provides more confidence to like is this thing that we're doing working or not where we Might have a hard time quantifying and so I would use as a tool and then

[01:16:49] I would also look at other things like okay, well are we running this with like a geol of test as well and so I made We're seeing some like results positive results from that and the survey data saying this as well and they

[01:17:00] Like post-purchase survey data is kind of saying it's similar things so it's just you know It's just adds confidence to decision making but it I mean it's correlation right and we will know the issues

[01:17:11] Potential issues with survey you know people reporting wrong or you know there's all these issues with survey data But for me it's it's the best way that I think allows you to quantify future demand so in example I might be

[01:17:24] We have a focus on Q3 and we we saw our A consideration metrics go up and so therefore my help is planned For how we How big would go Q4

[01:17:36] For sure, and that was kind of the original yeah quick question that led you mess in the means like based on what we've spent already this top of fun I'll spend like we believe It will create ultimately that aware and I spend will ultimately create

[01:17:49] Consideration and then conversions Turn a peak moment but we just don't know how much of that is actually gonna You know come around and so that's your that's your strategy to kind of pinpoint it

[01:17:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, one of one of you you can never get a rot but it's always like how can we Get some visibility into it. Right. I'll argue some visibility is better than absolutely no visibility

[01:18:12] And and I'm also not saying that everyone should go out and run these pumped to brand surveys I think they make sense when you're at a certain size in a certain level and that's different for me market like if you're in Australia

[01:18:22] You know like 2627 million people you you you you you know reach your maximum like in market demand a lot quicker than you do in the US So maybe add a certain size that you know that makes more sense to like go more upper funnels do TV and radio

[01:18:36] Then it does at a speed that you're doing the US and you deal with different like five million population You're gonna exhaust the market to mind a lot quicker that way as well, so you have to move kind of up the funnel again

[01:18:45] So I'm definitely not saying that this is what you should do but if you are doing it It just adds another way to add confidence to your decision making Right Google and in Facebook

[01:18:56] We've worked with reps there that like run similar programs and at least for meta we could tie it to like an Incherminality test so if we wanted to like hold out a certain number of they do it at the user level

[01:19:07] It's not geolavo, but they'll split that out and then we'll run brand surveys in both and look at like an incremental Considered person Which I think is really cool. Cody you said earlier are you guys feeding Site visitors in the house and looking at cost per incremental visitor

[01:19:23] We are not currently we're in the process. We actually have our first data hire starting next week And but you know when we first on board with house we just hooked up Shopify

[01:19:31] But yeah, you can hook up a warehouse as well and so I've been told at least that if if it's anything that you can get geolocation data on You can ultimately you know feed that in or we can do our own analysis on it

[01:19:41] So that's a plan of how it works I love the prompted survey data. We like I said we ran it with a couple platforms It's not on an ongoing basis. It's frankly not a data point that will often speak to will look at

[01:19:53] Like brand queries. I like the idea of cost per incremental visitor that makes sense like Or just people searching for you or they come inside and they're looking around like I don't actually care about revenue is just like are we Are we

[01:20:05] Creating someone to like driving someone to take an action? I think is valuable insight that likes is surprisingly hard to track most brands are really just looking at like

[01:20:13] Directly attributed visitors and attributed conversions and not trying to figure out like what is the net new interest that you're driving Ties I wanted to ask you this because we do use track suit and we and we measure the a lot of these metrics over time

[01:20:26] They're very they're very interesting to track and see that got that how they changed every three six 12 months One thing I also love about it and we had a really hard time quantifying this before but tracksuit gives you an estimated total

[01:20:39] People in your category in the market. So like if you're like cat what's my tan yeah? That's awesome. It's really cool and like to be able to go in and say okay, well, we've had this many orders all time

[01:20:48] You know here's what tracksuit tells our tells us our tam is and it kind of gives you a sense of like when you mark start to see that diminishing

[01:20:54] Her but the question I wanted to ask you so like your basically saying this is just another another like tool in your kind of like attribution

[01:21:01] Quiver right with us like we have a very long consideration period. So if I were gonna if I was gonna go and say hey You know, we want to go spend a million bucks on TV over the course of three months Like the chances that were also

[01:21:15] I mean you really have to control a single variable right to be confident that okay that three million bucks spent over three months And then the three months following we saw an increase in in consideration let's say from you know 20% to 28% like

[01:21:31] The only real way I can I can like attribute that directly to that increase in TV spend is if I'm also not You know crank it up Facebook or out of home or TikTok or all these other channels over time right?

[01:21:41] So is there do you have any advice on that part like how are you? Like because just like obviously brands are making like we change our media mix every month based on what

[01:21:52] Our models tell us to do so you know our spends always changing all these channels spends are always changing Like in terms of really controlling for a single variable and then tracking it over time In a tool like tracksuit

[01:22:04] Do you have any advice for that or is it kind of an imperfect science and that's just the nature of it Yeah, it's just is absolutely an imperfect science right I mean

[01:22:13] I would say you know you'd want to correlate that with post purchase survey data at the you know When did you first hear about us level but also at the channel level so maybe you know Maybe TV is like you know before your big campaign push

[01:22:26] It's at some kind of predictable benchmark but then you do a a campaign push and then the percentage of people who sell for port TV like actually increases And so you know use that as like a confluence methodology But you can also

[01:22:41] Like you can also think about like do we see changes in our marketing mix model for example? Where you have like an increased you know spend for that period and then like how does how does the model like

[01:22:54] Recall like didn't derecalabrate the model with like any hold out test that you're doing at the at the time Do you recalibate with prayers like yeah, so you're exactly right the as as you know

[01:23:04] The meet-emix changes all time as you're running tests and experiments, but I would argue that Maybe if you go from like spending 500,000 consistently to a million dollars a month You know you just increase men by 100% for like you know the the months

[01:23:20] You know you should see you should see like you should be on a see that in the data somewhere So whether that is how the meeting mix model is like

[01:23:28] Changes how it how it weights a different right changes to spend or whether that is like an obvious and obvious change to post purchase survey data Like like you'd be increased teaspoon by a hundred percent like you shouldn't have

[01:23:41] You shouldn't be reaching benchmarks when your post purchase survey data that that should that should change considerably And so for me it's just another data point that is like okay, we have this kind of we have this way

[01:23:54] To like try and attempt to quantify people who don't even come to our website that they have an embed to our website Right, and so but how can we see if if we are with a goal or top of fun?

[01:24:06] Who is to create mental availability and become part of someone's future consideration set? Are we doing that successfully it is like the consideration number going up and does then does the consideration percentage change in like a meaningful way and an obvious way three other parts of the conference

[01:24:25] That we can say okay, we think TV was like the like like contributed meaning to this and and you right It's it's an art. It's not a hard science But it's also getting people comfortable with this as well, right? It's about

[01:24:38] Understanding that getting the team to understand that there are different ways and different methodologies to measure And this is one methodology it might be it might make sense for you it might not not make sense for you

[01:24:50] And it's just understanding like when's a right tool you pull from the tool set when you kind of need to Understand yeah, well and understand

[01:24:59] It's methodology and and what it will. But Emma and piece is really interesting because at any time you you take a channel in you drastically change the signal being spent here right if you double if you're like all right

[01:25:11] We're gonna go from a hundred k to a 250 k like the MMM should be able to take that additional 150 k per month for three months and and give you a really strong

[01:25:20] Read on like what the you know the correlation is between that increased spend and and revenue that it's driving So be really interesting to like do that for two three months exactly and then be like all right

[01:25:30] Well, what does the MMM say now because if the MMM is recommending the same medium mix That it was Prior and it's not higher than chances are it's probably not not driving a ton of incrementality right yeah

[01:25:41] Exactly and and I think I think we're gonna see the marshes ult from this is is doing Like doing something changing the channel mix for a period of time Where it where you have some time to

[01:25:53] Understand what is going on and not just like when does TV campaign for a week like a month? Yeah, you might see some Rangers in the data but like having a longer time period and and traditionally a MMM you do it once a quarter right

[01:26:07] You read just like the model wants to call it now. We have these great tools You know we can kind of do a calerated weekly or like yeah, we're mostly usually so The yeah, yeah, that the change in feedback loop is is quite fast in now

[01:26:21] And so again that that makes it more complicated because you know you're changing your recalibrating the model So often now is previously is you know once a quarter is really Was like the standard of how you calibrate these models so having some consistent data that you can say

[01:26:39] This info we are confident. We are relatively confident we have it like 90% confident that Dispend Now should result in this medium mix and we've used this these tools to kind of like Not even trying you letting anyone's like like four five So it's a panterian

[01:26:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good of attribution Yeah, so there's lots of tools Measurements is challenging pick pick several tools to help evaluate you know similar to the the shoulder

[01:27:16] Disoccasion analogy before that's awesome. I appreciate the run through that super helpful. I just I just chat GPT If there was a word if there was a triangulate for five points and there's not so we have the opportunity to be Yeah, yeah Awesome

[01:27:37] Well the guys I think this was a fantastic episode. I've got one more question here Tyson You studied jazz guitar. Do I have that right? Yeah, it was the closest thing to heavy metal in a Sick dude amazing you're

[01:27:49] Incredibly cool is there anything that we can take from jazz guitar and apply to e-commerce yeah I wouldn't say jazz guitar specifically, but um Yeah, yeah music in general, right so

[01:28:03] You know in you know in music and like I have a jazz band on ensemble and you have like you know layers Right, so you have like drums you know bass you have maybe one or two guitars my have sacks

[01:28:14] Maybe trumper you know singer and so you have these layers of complexity, right And then over time you know sheet music you read and you have like the different notes and then and every every like

[01:28:25] Instrument has its own you know it's own so and key so notes and so and core progressions et cetera and so You know In music you have to like align all those things up to like Work and function as as a team and

[01:28:42] And if like the drums are slightly off beat, you know it's gonna sound bad. It's gonna if the guitar is tuned wrong It's gonna you know sound really bad

[01:28:50] Yeah, put the other instruments off so everything has to be in tune and like on on time like rhythm and so That's similar to marketing right and so you have like all these channels that kind of lay on top of each other And you have

[01:29:03] You know you have your measurement of a structure is might be the drums set in the tempo and you like set in the pace You go back in like see see like how things are working and and then all the other like instruments are supporting roles

[01:29:16] And there's different and everyone knows their role to play right so drums Like saying the tempo with bass as well the kind of saying the tempo you have your guitar It's like you know and piano as well. That's like bringing Bringing like

[01:29:30] Like the different chord structures and like bringing the warmth through the different chord Arrangements they can play and then they're supporting the vocalists if you have a vocalist as well

[01:29:38] So you have to like understand like how loud you have to be relative to the vocalists and like moderate yourself there or Maybe you're tempted to solo and you've like so what does the framework to do a solo? It's like what chord progressions are we playing

[01:29:50] I don't know if you've had of this The four chord songs so it's like you want it if you run a white right a pop song so it's like 1564 so in the key see it's a D so C G a minor f and um

[01:30:02] They'll if you run right a pop song there the four chords so action's definitely around this podcast And this is out there I would encourage everyone to go go go to YouTube and type in

[01:30:13] Access of awesome four chords song and what they demonstrate is there's just basically every pop song is four chords And so when you think about what what else can we take from music? Well

[01:30:23] Music has frameworks as well that you can translate and this four chord is a classic example of a Framework and then you know you have that in marketing what for what's a scaling framework

[01:30:33] How do you like structure add accounts what's the framework of your craves strategy so if anything there's like two takeaways one thing is like the layers of The ensemble represent the different band members represent the channels and how the channels need to be aligned up in your marketing

[01:30:48] And how you you structure your marketing calendar every day and and The other part is there's like frameworks that you get the different that different structure of a song has so same We like how you have different channel frameworks or different scouting frameworks

[01:31:03] I used to actually refer to myself like CMOs like the conductor as well. So you have like all the orchestra And then you're like right you like this section over here like a bit louder or like they come down here a bit quieter and you know

[01:31:14] Maybe that's like a budget analogy as well, so You have a lot of inspiration that you can draw from from from jazz But I'm I'm really just a metal head

[01:31:24] God it got it. Yeah, I know I think we can all agree marketers are like the conductors the lead singers the like best looking in the band types Yeah, definitely definitely the best looking on your yeah

[01:31:36] Awesome alright well look we're gonna we're gonna call it a wrap on this episode Tyson Thank you so much for joining this is super fun. Yeah, thanks everyone really feeling incredibly

[01:31:44] Proved to be a part of that that was episode 13. Thank you again for tuning in make sure to like subscribe Comments share with your friends. We've got a bunch of great episodes coming up to make sure he's dead tuned and thank you again to our sponsors motion

[01:31:56] Pression AI rich panel and house what happens on the world's greatest nine figure executives e-commerce marketers and DTC content creators combined Something freaking huge headed nine operators dot com smash that I want to be the first to know button and we'll do exactly that